Should you skip your workout? Crafting Performance Ep. 1
Summary
When should you skip or modify your workout? Contour Endurance coaches John and Peter sit down to help you decide what could be best for you and share other cycling tips diving into the world of training adaptations, and performance strategies. Join us for an insightful conversation covering personal athletic journeys, evolving accessibility in the sport, and key strategies to optimize your training—both indoors and outdoors.
🔹 Chapters & Topics Covered:
00:00 Introduction to the Conversation
02:35 Personal Backgrounds & Athletic Journeys
04:58 The Evolution of Cycling Accessibility – How the sport is becoming more inclusive.
07:48 Navigating Workout Modifications – Adjusting training for better performance and injury prevention.
15:17 The Importance of Recovery & Self-Assessment – Listening to your body to maximize gains.
26:10 Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic Motivation in Sports
30:46 Trainer Bike Strategy: Is my bike too clapped?
36:44 The Importance of Bike Fit – Avoiding setbacks with proper setup.
39:41 Transitioning from Indoor to Outdoor Riding
47:01 Exploring New Training Ideas & Emotional Intelligence
57:35 Baking Soda Experiment
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John Cox (00:01)
Yo Peter, how's it going?Peter Haile (00:03)
Hey John, it's good to see you.John Cox (00:05)
What are we doing here? Recording ourselves.Peter Haile (00:07)
We are recording ourselves. I think we want to have conversations that we have already and record them for the benefit of a broader community.John Cox (00:16)
Yeah, yeah, this might be a rambling. It could be some rabbit holes, but yeah, I think we're just wanting to get together and share, you know, some of our inner thoughts as coaches and athletes. And yeah, hopefully it benefits those who listen. And, you know, I could see down the road taking questions and covering topics that, you know, you all want to hear about. And so.Yeah, today we're gonna get in a little bit who we are, cover a couple topics, and then dive into some recent musings that we've been thinking about. So Peter, who are you? I was thinking about it before we got on. This is, I think, 10 years since we've met, 10 or 11 years. It's been a minute.
Peter Haile (00:58)
Yeah,
yeah, it's great. It's our value friendship a whole lot. I am an ex-AJC, avid Junior Cyclist. I started racing when I was like 12 and I'm coming up on 36, so that's 24 years. Not all of that has been racing, but I was super driven as a youngster.
And I also wanted to just mention what is this. I think it'd be really cool to like interview other people, bring other people in. Like some of your high performing juniors would be awesome. You're like just riffs with. But I was, I was like them back in the 2000s and I raced at Lees McCray college. I was that stuff, the road racer, but
John Cox (01:34)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Haile (01:49)
I started mountain biking and mountain biking was and still is the thing I like doing the most, but my body responds better to road and gravel. I've got two boys. I'm married and I live in Sheridan, Wyoming. I have never been a proper professional, but I've made enough money to live extremely poor.
I'm racing crits in my early 20s up and down the East Coast, but I've never been a European pro. been at the game for a long time. When John and I met, I'd been riding much longer, and we would just go on some death marches in Pisgah. And now John would murder me on any, if we were actually to properly.
row down on some course, probably any course, but the ones that involve a lot of climbing, I would get killed.
John Cox (02:43)
Thanks for the compliment.
Peter Haile (02:45)
Yeah, yeah, it's just reality.
John Cox (02:47)
It's
payback for when I had to chase you around.
Peter Haile (02:51)
Yeah, Yep, so who are you, John?
John Cox (02:56)
Yeah, I'm John Cox. I'm the owner, head coach, cat herder of Contour Endurance and Contour Racing. Yeah, my athletic background's a little bit different. I didn't come to cycling until later. In my youth, I was in martial arts, and so I did that for a decade, decade plus.
and then played lacrosse in high school, had some college offers, didn't want to go to any of the schools that gave me offers. And so I chose the school that had a degree that I wanted to study, which happened to be Recreation and Sports Sciences. And so in college, I guess let me back up, I also rode motos a bit growing up. And so I had a, you know.
affinity for two wheels. I had dreams of being a BMX racer that didn't pan out. Mount biking wasn't really a thing where I was at the time. I grew up in Ohio and it's not like today where there's NICA teams of hundreds of kids at schools.
wish it was. Like I wish I would have found the sport earlier. It would have lined much better with my interest and personality than lacrosse. But yeah, it's crazy the age that people are getting into it. I mean, you got into it early Peter, but I think it's much more accessible now, which is great. But yeah, you know, I found mountain biking in college and
you know, participated recreationally, and then started chasing KOMs, particularly on downhills. And so I was kind of an enderbro for a while. But I had, you know, this fitness background and, you know, started to put the pieces together that, you know, biking could be both those things of, you know, this fitness and this training piece and, you know, figuring out how to get faster and...
know, diving into the science of that and then also the fun of it. So yeah, yeah, that's a little bit about my background.
Peter Haile (04:58)
Yeah, super cool. One thing you mentioned really hit home with me, just like the accessibility of mountain biking or cycling in general for young people is amazing. Like I still am close to the guys I grew up riding with or some of them, but a lot of them are, they were in their mid thirties or forties when I was 15. And like those are the guys I was riding with.
I didn't know anybody that was my age locally. I grew up in a cycling crazy town. Fort Collins is like big time cycling town, but back then there weren't very many kids that wanted to pedal hard or ride really consistently. So it's really cool to watch it just flourish in the United States.
John Cox (05:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure, you know, what the drivers are. I'm sure it's, you know, social media, just access to the world and different sports. And then obviously, like, Nika is a big component of it. But yeah, I mean, now, like you blog into Instagram and you can see, you know, all sorts of sports you didn't know know about. Whereas that was not a thing when we were growing up like.
the phones that we did have or when we did get them, they weren't loaded up to the internet, that's for sure.
Peter Haile (06:14)
No, which I'm thankful
for in a lot of ways, but.
John Cox (06:17)
Yeah, maybe that's something we'll talk about in another
episode is the comparison game imposter syndrome.
Peter Haile (06:25)
Yep. Yep.
John Cox (06:26)
Sweet. I guess, you know, one of the first topics we wanted to talk about, you know, and I guess I'll backstep. know, Peter, we have been friends for a long time and then we entered a new relationship of coach and athlete and we went through that phase and now you're kind of taking on self coaching a little bit more and I'm more of an advisor or a consultant and then
you know, the hope, or I guess not even the hope, is that you'll, you know, come on to contour coaching staff. So I guess as we get on this topic, you know, these are perspectives from athletes and coaches on both sides. So the first one we're going to get into is when to skip or modify a workout. As a dad to two kids, Peter, I imagine you've faced this multiple times.
Peter Haile (07:12)
Mm-hmm.
Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, yesterday I was thinking about it. yeah. So I, I think about, uh, like the emotional response and like how there's a lot of wrestling. Um, and I, what I was thinking about in leading up to this conversation is like the question of the reason it becomes like a little bit like emotionally wrenching of when to quit is, um,
John Cox (07:20)
when to skip and modify.
Peter Haile (07:48)
or not quit, but when to skip or modify a workout a lot is because you need to kind of have this, this like drive or just like you setting your training is really important in your life. If you're gonna do this kind of thing, it's hard. And in order to make it easier, I think one trick that I use or one coping mechanism is I just say like, it's not an emotional decision.
Like every time, I can't make an emotional decision. if I've already decided to train, so I'm gonna just let that decision happen once back in October. And then if I've committed to that, it's like not a question. Like I'm gonna do the plan. And so when I'm feeling bad or when something comes up, I think the tension becomes I'm like wrestling with like, am I?
Am I going back on myself? Am I am I failing to meet some commitment that I've already made and
And in part, I think that is a good wrestling to have, but I've been sick recently. I've got a four month old and a three and a half year old. so like there's just, and I'm in Northern Wyoming. So it's like, it's literally five degrees out right now. So I'm doing entire, all of my training inside and there's frequent sicknesses. So I've had a cold yesterday and it's been like kind of a pattern, like one cold a week for like three weeks or something like that.
And so I had a big set of like five by five intervals yesterday I wanted to do. Five minutes on at like 380 and then five minutes basically easy rest and then repeat that five times. So it's one of my key sessions, one of my two key sessions a week that I built and I couldn't do it yesterday. I was like had cold like.
snotty like I might have could I might have but you were like don't even think about it because the truth is I'd be digging a hole that I Wouldn't want to come out of and so I think that's probably like my first litmus test is like In my would doing it dig a hole that would Impede my forward progress and yes, your advanced worth. Yes for sure
What kind of like litmus tests do you use or for yourself or give athletes that are struggling with this?
John Cox (10:08)
Yeah, it's, you know, I'm self-coached and so I'm always putting on the hat of coach for myself and obviously for the athletes that I work with and, you know, try to step away. I think what you brought up was a good point is like the emotional response. Like if you can step away from that and think about it objectively and that's ultimately one of the, you know, key roles of a coach is to be objective and like, is this good or bad?
this worth it instead of yeah having that emotion tied to it. But the the filter I go through and this is like one of the key principles in my coaching practice and I'm sure many other coaches is you know it's not about completing training it's about what is the training that you can absorb and so if the answer it wouldn't
you face that decision, it's like, will I absorb this training? Is my body in a position to absorb this training? Not just do it, but absorb it.
Yes or no. And if it's, yes, I can absorb it, great. Then like, let's, you know, buckle up and get it done. The answer is no, because I'm too tired. I'm too fatigued. I'm sick. My body's fighting something else off, because stress is stress. Your body doesn't care if you are, you know, doing intervals or you're fighting off a cold or work is crazy busy or school or whatever it is. Like if you're, you know,
LSS, your life stress score, it's like through the roof, then you're just not going to absorb that training. So the answer is probably no, take a break, take the day off. And then I think the next step after that of, you know, yes or no, if it's, you know, no, I'm not going to absorb it, then what do you do? What's the pivot? Do you take the day off? Do you substitute?
Peter Haile (11:45)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (11:59)
I I have my opinion of that, but I'd like to hear yours first.
Peter Haile (12:04)
Yeah, I think it depends on how you're coming into the question. Sometimes it's just the accumulation of fatigue over weeks. That's been a perspective shift for me in the last few years. like...
I, when I was younger, I really just wanted to absolutely smash individual workouts and I viewed a workout as the key thing that was going to get me over some hurdle or make me successful in the discipline that I was competing in. But as I got older, I don't think that at all. think the thing that, a workout is a drop in the bucket. If one doesn't happen,
no big deal, can still be consistent, it's just like the definition of consistency for you includes being sick, because you're an embodied person. And like what really makes a difference is like the consistent load that you can sustain and put yourself through, it's gonna create different adaptations. What was the, can you remind me of the original? I kind of.
John Cox (13:12)
Once you go through the filter of, I going to absorb this, yes or no? If the answer is no, I'm not going to absorb this key session. Do you take the day off or do you pivot? If you're pivoting, how are you doing that? I'm going to do a recovery ride, I'm going to do zone two, or do you take a day off? Or just lower the intensity, what's your thoughts there?
Peter Haile (13:27)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, well yesterday I thought we ended up shifting to Z2 because I am a time crunched athlete. Like I don't have unlimited time. I can ride about 10 hours a week and that's sometimes pushing it. Sometimes time opens up. And so I think if you're sick, you want to do what you can while not additionally stressing your body and your just have to
make that judgment call for yourself. Like I was kind of trying to ride that line of like allowing my body to heal while getting a little bit of pedaling. Sometimes getting a little bit of pedaling can like make your body feel a little bit better, like warm up, the lungs moving, like start kick, kickstart that engine. If you're just like way too fatigued, like let's say it's not sickness and like, let's say you've put together like four or five weeks of like,
really good block and you're at the end of it and there's a few more workouts and you just can't stress it, can't do it. It might be worth just like, it might ultimately be better. Like your goal is not to like, I think what you were getting to the other time is like not to tick boxes. Your goal is not to have a perfect training piece calendar. Like your goal is to have the adaptations that you can absorb and
those are going to be dependent on how you're feeling. And there's a lot of times when I think the base perception of walking into those sessions is, because you have to gird yourself. You have to be like, I'm really tough, and I can do this hard thing. But I think most people are maybe too tough.
It's not ever a bad thing, especially particularly if you're a young driven athlete or even if you're a driven master's athlete. I feel like I had the same mind as I did when I was 17, but I still have drive and it's almost never a bad thing to have a little bit more recovery or to that's not gonna hurt you. Recovery is when you get better. so pumping the brakes and being like, okay, it's time to just
John Cox (15:39)
Yeah.
Peter Haile (15:44)
I put in good five weeks, like time to reset. That's hardly ever, ever a bad thing. Most people assume that they're not tough enough when in truth they're probably too tough. I think.
John Cox (15:48)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. You know, the things that come to my mind are, you know, what's the purpose of training to get faster, not just to train, right? There's a purpose to it. It's to get faster. It's to, you know, do better at our key event. It's not just, yeah, to tick the boxes. And then, yeah.
What's the worst thing that happens if you get some extra recovery? Right? And we're not talking about like take a month off, you know, we're saying don't ride today or, you know, take the next three days chill. Like odds are you're probably going to show up to your next key workout fresher and be able to do higher quality work or you're going to show up to your event.
Peter Haile (16:24)
Yeah.
John Cox (16:36)
with a little bit more freshness and not be so fatigued. The con of taking a little extra recovery is non-existent. Now, if it turns into a pattern of, you know, can't do this workout, I can't do this workout, which nine out 10 times is more time management in my experience, then it's a concern. But...
Peter Haile (16:37)
.
So.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, motivation.
It's fine. You don't have to be a professional athlete. You can go be a doctor or anything. You can work at Home Depot. You can build decks. Whatever.
John Cox (17:01)
Let's.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's super true. You know, the worst athlete, this may be a judgmental statement, I have no idea. But I think the worst athlete is the one that signs up for an event, say, Leadville, and then just complains every week about the training they have to do or the riding and all this stuff. And it's like, you signed up for this. You don't have to do this. There's a very easy solution. Don't do it.
Peter Haile (17:27)
Yeah.
John Cox (17:33)
just quit, like no one's forcing you to do it. And that comes to that cliche, if you will, of just like, I don't have to do it, I get to do it, and shifting that perspective. And while it is a cliche, it is very true that this is something that you get to do and it's a privilege. I think about that a lot as someone that does a lot of training, does a lot of riding, it is a privilege.
Peter Haile (17:33)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, this is a crazy tangent, I, speaking of to like submitting yourself and not having it submitted upon you, upon like, you know, like I'm committing to the training. I'm not like having it like forced upon me. I read a study or listened to something that had a study about, if you like put like a hamster wheel in the forest, like mice will like run to it and they'll like, like wild, wild animals will like run on it and squirrels and stuff. And if.
the animals that like willingly participate in like running on the hamster wheel, they undergo good adaptations. But if you like were to force an animal, if you like were to force, you know, whatever you're studying to like run, like there's a different adaptation. Like it's not, you're not just purely, well, I think what I'm trying to get at is like,
volunteering for the thing is critical to getting good adaptations, whereas having it forced upon you, I think the stress response kind of kills that. If you're like, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this, that's gonna hurt your response as much as anything. If you can get to the point where you're like, hey, this is what I'm doing and it doesn't stress me out and I like it, that's way better. You're gonna get better adaptations out of that.
John Cox (19:17)
Yeah, I think that gets a little bit into something we should definitely cover in another episode is the intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. another key principle in my coaching practice and the team and all of that is that we're process first. And that is absolutely critical to long-term success and sustainable growth.
You can't be doing this long term because you want specific results or even specific watts or whatever it is. Or worst case scenario, someone's forcing it upon you. And this can be the case with some junior athletes, especially in American culture, which that's a whole rabbit hole, our culture versus European culture.
in cycling. You know, we have the peewee mentality coming in and that's really, that's a really hard mentality to have in endurance sport where it takes years upon years of stacking bricks to see any real fruit. And yeah, the other thing I think that's hard, and this is definitely a rabbit hole, parents that'll, they want their kids to do well and that's good thing.
Peter Haile (20:25)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (20:40)
But doing well doesn't necessarily equal winning. And it looks different for everyone. And the harsh reality with cycling is you are going to lose way, way, way more than you win. And that's a product of it being an individual sport versus, you know, soccer, football, hockey. You have a 50-50 shot of winning or losing every time.
Peter Haile (20:45)
Yeah, it looks different for every kid.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
John Cox (21:09)
There's races that you tow the line and you have a 1 % chance of winning. Or less.
Peter Haile (21:13)
Yeah.
Or, or 0%. Yeah. I really appreciate that, that you're so process driven, especially with, um, junior athletes, but really anybody is, uh, but I'll speak for a moment about juniors is like, if you're 17 or 18 or even 19, like a lot of your success is, uh, is going to be further down the line because like,
John Cox (21:17)
Well, yeah, realistically zero.
Peter Haile (21:42)
how you are, how your body is developmentally is not up to you. It's like, it's just biology. it's like that Malcolm Gladwell thing where he studied the Canadian junior hockey team and like they all, or most of them had birthdays between like January and March and it's because they were just older, you know? And so they got early on into better development programs.
And so if you're 17 or if you're 16 and like you're not having the success you want, it's not because you're not tough. Like it's not because you're not submitting to the training. Like you just gotta wait. Like cycling is such a long game that like.
Like you can make your body do amazing things, but it might take a while. And I think that's one of the cool and beautiful parts about it is you can look at somebody, a really good cyclist, and they don't look like some sort of superhero athlete, you know? But you've got this like hidden ability, like in your heart and your blood, and like you don't look any different than like a regular person on the street.
It's accumulation over a decade of training makes a big difference.
John Cox (22:54)
Yeah, that was something I was talking about with an athlete the other day. Man, dude, we were touching on a bunch of rabbit holes that we can go down. We're gonna have to be better at being focused. But cycling now is so different and it comes, you know, one, more people are partaking in the sport, two,
Nutrition is a huge driver and figuring out like, what if we just feel for performance and trust that our biology is going to figure out what's optimal for us and performances are going through the roof. And a byproduct of that is more people are in the sport with different, you know, physiologies. And that's incredible. You know, you look at the folks winning, whether it's gravel races or
you know, especially like XCO. XCO is so explosive now. Like being a string bean that can't produce any watts, you're going to get blown off the start line. And it's exciting to see, you know, all sorts of people being successful, you know, like in the Grand Prix. have Keegan, who's 145, 150 pounds about, and he's obviously a...
Peter Haile (23:49)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (24:05)
absolute monster. But then you also have, you know, a Matt Beers who's ginormous and Brent Wirtz that, like the watts that those guys put out are massive. And, you know, they're racing the same courses and they're having similar success. And it's just how you play your cards, right. And I think that's a beautiful thing now.
Peter Haile (24:22)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (24:27)
it opens up the sport. You can participate in different ways. You know, like even with like the athletes that I coach, it's always fun to like think about how they're different than like myself, because I obviously understand what I'm doing, what I'm good at and bad at. But you know, it's like I'm typically better at longer stuff.
Peter Haile (24:44)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (24:45)
I don't have like the
most massive kick, but you know, I have an athlete who's about my height, about my weight. And, you know, I would destroy him on like a long set of over-unders or like a long climb. But if it's sub...
It's five minutes, like I'm in for a world of hurt. And the shorter it gets, the more he's gonna wreck me. I made the mistake of doing his pre-race openers with him one time and it didn't go great.
Peter Haile (25:03)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It's super cool. And like using those, like the phrase, like know thyself, you know, like the, what is that? Soxocrates or something. It's so important because like,
Now that you know that about yourself as an athlete and your athletes are knowing that about themselves and for myself the same, it affects how you interact with the sport and how your strategy is going to be at different events. If you know you're really good at the longer efforts, you just got to ride the wave. You just can't respond to the 50 minor attacks. You just got to let those play off and then like...
hit it long and hard, like for the last half hour or something, something long enough, you know?
John Cox (25:56)
Yeah.
Yeah. Or like, I mean, if you and I were racing each other, our FTPs aren't too far apart. But I am not coming to a sprint with you. Like I'm, I'm doing everything I can to avoid that.
Peter Haile (26:05)
Yeah.
No, so.
Yeah, and I'd be trying
to like, I'd be trying to make that happen, you know, and I'd be trying to like, survive on any sort of uphill or trying to be I'd be using the grandma shuffle you start at front of the pack and then you just drift back to this like stay in contact on any kind of uphill.
John Cox (26:18)
Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Grandma shuffle, that's all there is.
Peter Haile (26:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I think that kind of, I think we covered the broader topic of like when to avoid or modify a workout. Is there anything else you want to mention in there?
John Cox (26:47)
Yeah, I think the last thing I'll mention on that front, you know, if it doesn't feel good, don't do it. You know, and sometimes, you know, athletes, you know, will be worried about disappointing themselves like you said earlier, or worried about disappointing, you know, me as a coach. Like that's real thing. And I always tell them like,
Peter Haile (26:55)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (27:09)
This isn't about me. This is about you and what's best for you. And you never need my permission to not do something. Like if you go out and almost every workout I give, especially like on intervals, and you've obviously experienced this, is I always give an opener effort. And yes, that's to warm up and get primed before the set, because hopping into the first interval cold.
Peter Haile (27:17)
Yeah. Yeah.
John Cox (27:36)
or just office M2 is not gonna go well, but it's also a time to check in with yourself and say like, how's this feel today? Like, is this good? Is this bad? And obviously like, you have to like maintain a little better perspective because like, if you're gonna go do, hey, you're doing four by fours, four by fives, 40, 20s, some like VO2 work, like it's gonna hurt, it's gonna be hard, it's not gonna be easy, but like, does it feel like...
Peter Haile (27:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
John Cox (28:04)
good relatively to put out those watts and then if yeah like okay like let's knock it out of the park but if you do that like opener effort and you're like this is this is bad then it's probably time to call it and and either pivot to something lower intensity or zone two or like you know if it's super bad like go home
Peter Haile (28:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for sure. I use the litmus test of like, if I'm considering, if I'm doubting myself because of I'm wondering whether I'm just lazy or something, I use the tool of like, I'm gonna get dressed, I'm gonna get on my bike. And if I've done that, and I still am dreading this in a big way, like it's probably a sign I shouldn't do it.
John Cox (28:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I normally give myself 20 minutes. I do that and then like pedal for 20 minutes, like you're warming up and if it's still bad, go home. What I think's really interesting is this whole time we haven't talked really about like any data, like no power, no heart rate. It's just how you feel. And I think that surprises people a lot because cycling is so data-driven and like I'm a fairly data.
Peter Haile (28:56)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
John Cox (29:22)
driven or data nerd. And I think it surprises people when I'm like, yeah, RPE is super important, if not the most important, and then knowing yourself. And so I think, yeah, you gotta learn that. I think it's crucial to, yeah, figuring out when to skip or modify. Because the data sometimes doesn't tell you, or it doesn't tell you till five days later when you're in bed and sick, because you push too hard.
Peter Haile (29:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Yep. For sure. And like, I was listening to something about the, the potential for like, live blood glucose monitoring. Like if you had like a, if you had a tool, you know, attached to your skin, yeah. which is super cool, super attractive, but the thing that they were mentioning is like the data markers that that throws off.
John Cox (29:48)
you
Yeah, the CGMs.
Peter Haile (30:11)
Like if it's gonna flag that you have low blood sugar, like it's too late, like it's way too late. And I think that would be the, let's say we could invent some device that plugged in your skin or under your nervous system somehow and it's like, hey, you're way too stressed right now. If that existed, I imagine it's like flags, it's red flags that would shoot up, would be similar, it would be too late. Knowing yourself.
John Cox (30:15)
Yeah.
Peter Haile (30:40)
is probably a better indicator than any machine could give you.
John Cox (30:47)
Yeah, yeah, there's super interesting studies that, you know, look at this and I'll have to go pull them for references, but they always come out with like the best way to find if an athlete's tired or fatigued is just ask them, how do you feel? How are you?
Peter Haile (31:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
John Cox (31:06)
You know, that's assuming that they're honest with you. So that's tip number one, be honest with yourself. And then tip number two, be honest with your coach. cause yeah, it's a, it's the best tool that you have. Well, let's shift to our second topic since we just went down a thousand rabbit holes, that we'll just add to our, to talk about later list is trainer bike strategy. So.
Peter Haile (31:09)
Yeah.
John Cox (31:30)
We were texting about this a little bit. Your prompt is, my bike too clapped? Trainer bike strategy. So tell us your perspective, Peter.
Peter Haile (31:39)
Well, my bike is too clapped, but I'm just going to keep rolling with it. So I ride near 100 % of my rides indoors because I live on the planet Hoth. Basically, it's like literally five degrees and blowing insane wind and it's frozen everywhere and it's bad. I have an old S-Works hardtail from 2013.
on my trainer and like the drivetrain is like completely destroyed. Like the cassette is just like, just like sharks, shark teeth on the whole way around. And it's just not good, but like it does allow me to do the workout. And I know that I have major drivetrain efficiency losses. Like I can hear it. It's like.
And so like my strategy is like, it would be several hundred bucks to like replace that stuff. and I'm okay with just knowing that, I could probably do more outside, like where the numbers would read differently outside or with a fresh bike with fresh driving. But like, once again, like the goal is like submitting yourself to this activity that promotes adaptations and like the numbers are what they are.
And ultimately, I'm not racing numbers. I'm racing other people in six months when the world thaws out a little bit. yeah, so I think we have different strategies with our trainer bike. I tend to have at least one bike that's completely trashed, and I just will not replace anything at all until I replace everything, or just sell it for, or give it to high school kid and then buy a different bike.
And I keep one bike in really good nick. I keep my racing bike really, really fresh and good. And then I have like some horrible beater that's worth nothing, that's worth 200 bucks and I just ride it into the ground.
John Cox (33:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think my strategy is different because I don't have a dedicated trainer bike though I do think about getting that just to yeah, be able to just like sweat on it and not worry about it. My bar is snapping down the line. But since, you know, my nice bike is also a trainer bike.
Peter Haile (33:47)
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (33:53)
I have to upkeep it, you know? And so after a few trainer sessions, it always gets a wash, you know, because like sweat is so corrosive. People don't realize that. I did a bad job of upkeeping a trainer bike years ago. And when I went to go do a headset service, I had to bash out the fork with a hammer because it was so seized and corroded. And like the heads of spacers were just part of the fork at that point.
Peter Haile (34:01)
Dad.
John Cox (34:18)
And that was carbon and that's not great. Like that's definitely compromised. And so I still have that frame in the garage actually I should probably just make that a trainer bike at this point because it would be unethical to sell that to somebody But yeah, think yeah, generally I upkeep it and you know just like a tip like upkeep an ounce of prevention is
Peter Haile (34:21)
No. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
John Cox (34:45)
worth everything, know, like waxing my chain, keeping my bike clean. Like I have a chain that's just been going for thousands and thousands of miles and I keep checking it because I expect it to be blown out at some point or a cassette and chainring and it just like keeps going. Granted, this is on a road bike so it faces less stresses than, you know, the mountain bike. But yeah, I think the upkeep is clutch. Yeah.
Peter Haile (34:46)
Yeah.
Go.
Yeah, wax has really
changed the game there. I feel like with the oil-based lubricants, I would wear out. And stuff just didn't last as long, know, when stuff was all nine speed or something. It just was worse. And so a 12-speed chain that's waxed, you can keep that cassette chainring and chain going for a long, long time if you keep up with it. Or maybe indefinitely. It's really cool.
John Cox (35:32)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's pretty clutch and like using the appropriate things at the appropriate time. Because like obviously like if it's going to be, you know, super wet then yeah, you need to throw some oil on there. If you're doing a six hour race in, you know, terrible conditions, the wax isn't going to last. yeah, generally it's pretty impressive.
Peter Haile (35:55)
Yeah.
Tim, you have a use case because you ride outdoors or you're able to ride outdoors way more than I can. And so like your bike is a safety factor for you as well. Like my bike is unsafe to ride outside, you know, and it's just like too gross, but it's fine on the trainer because I'm not moving. But yeah, I think if I were riding the same bike outdoors a lot.
John Cox (36:01)
Yeah.
Peter Haile (36:19)
I would want to keep it in better shape. The appeal of one of those, it's called Cave Works or the Zwift bike, the, it's more of an exercise piece of equipment. It can't be used outdoors. That more and more is like, yeah, I spent enough time on this thing. It's probably a good idea to just commit to it and just have a permanent fixture in my basement.
John Cox (36:27)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah. How important do you think it is that your fit match between outdoor and what you're training on? Because obviously like if I'm riding my, you know, road bike and I'm sliding on the trainer, it's the exact same fit.
Peter Haile (36:57)
Yeah.
you're not moving
your stem around like because you're. Yeah, I think it depends on who you are and like how injury prone your body may be. But I also feel like there's different requirements. Like the same bike feels different indoors and outdoors to me. I think part of that is just like the fact that the bike can rotate better outside and move underneath you. Like I feel like.
John Cox (37:05)
Yeah.
Peter Haile (37:28)
It's just a different demand on like your body. I also think that, on like a road bike or gravel bike, like the wind hitting your chest or like moving your body, like is not an insignificant force that, can help support you. And so sometimes I think athletes can, can have better success with like higher bars inside because like the wind is not helping support you, but you could get away with.
or thrive better with slightly lower bars outside. But the other piece of it is you don't want it to be crazy off because you want your body, you're creating adaptations that might only work really well or be optimal when you're at a close enough position. If my saddle was two inches too low, I would definitely notice, but also I think that would be working.
a different area of my muscle fibers or my hamstrings and quads or something. At least that's kind of my base reaction.
John Cox (38:29)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Haile (38:30)
What do you think?
John Cox (38:31)
Yeah, my experience, I feel like I'm the trainer. The reach feels longer than it actually is in my experience. And that might just be me. And then I ride the same bike outside and it feels shorter. I think that's, there's something about the momentum of riding outside.
And this is totally unfiltered and unthought about, but like, it feels like you can kind of like lean into it a little bit. And so I think my pelvis probably rotates more outside. Like if I'm in, you know, an arrow hoods position versus like if I do that inside, it just like does not feel right. So I'm much more upright indoors. But.
Peter Haile (39:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John Cox (39:17)
That's something I've been thinking about, you know, especially as we're
coming out of winter for some people. Sorry, Peter. It's going to be six more weeks according to the groundhog. It was 75 here yesterday, so I don't know what's going on. But, you know, as people come out, let's try to come up with three tips or three things to consider as you emerge from your hibernation.
Peter Haile (39:28)
If I'm
John Cox (39:42)
from indoor to outdoor to consider. My first one is gonna be Zwift hands. people, this is particular for gravel and road racers, because mountain bike kind of forces you to put your hands in the appropriate position. But obviously on drop bars, you have a bunch of different positions. And most people, if they're riding indoors,
will develop the habit of putting their hands at like the nook, like where the tops start to go around to the hoods and they'll just sit there. And that's an incredibly unsafe place to ride. And sometimes this is an indicator of a bad bike fit and you have too long of a reach, but like you either need to be in the hoods, on the tops, or down in the drops.
Peter Haile (40:18)
Mm.
John Cox (40:30)
And so I think people get these like Zwift hands and it's going to come out to bite them because they're going to hit a bump, especially, you know, gravel. have a bunch of debris and things. So my tip number one is no Zwift hands. Practice proper hand positions while you're inside. Be deliberate about that.
Peter Haile (40:47)
Yeah. If you are running a different bike, think a tip would be like, I have noticed cleat position and saddle height, particularly like, I think they're incredibly important. Like I would say cleat position and saddle height are the two things that I pay very, very close attention to. Because if it's a little bit off, like I can probably withstand it, but it's best to just like make it, make it perfect. Cause
I really, really, really don't want the tendons in my knees or my hips or my ankles to be stressed in a way that is not just due to the sport, but is because of biomechanically bad. And those are the kind of injuries that can have knockdown effects that can keep you off the bike for three months or something. And as we've talked about, consistency is everything.
John Cox (41:36)
Yeah, I think it always surprises people when I talk like in millimeters for like cleat position or something like that. And like it's not just being, you know, OCD or, you know, really anal about something. It's the fact that you like if your cleat is off two millimeters, you're repeating that repetition 10,000 times.
No joke, like you could repeat it 10,000 times. You you're spinning in a ride, like yeah, you're doing 90 RPM for, you know, a long ride. Like that's a lot of repetitions. And so something minor can become major. And so I think that's a great tip. What would the third be?
Peter Haile (42:05)
in a ride, yeah.
Yeah, for me, know I have to give myself, I have to have a long-term approach towards bike handling because, I mean, both you and I have been riding a really long time and it feels like those skills are just like identity-based. Like, yeah, I'm a really good mountain biker. Like, I can compete for comms on anything that I want, at least around here, you know? And that might not be true in April when I haven't even...
ridden a bike outside in six months. And so I just have to trust that the skills are gonna come and I can be intentional about that, but it doesn't have to happen right away. trying to be a little bit more conservative with the risks I'm willing to take or the things I'm willing to try on a bike, particularly a mountain bike. I guess, mean, this goes without saying, but mountain biking, you fall a lot more, but they're less severe.
But like, I'm really not gonna take any crazy risks on a gravel bike or road bike, maybe ever, because crashing on those bikes is like season ender or like life altering situation. I'm really not trying to crash on a gravel bike or a road bike, particularly at speed like ever. But I know I'm gonna crash on my mountain bike a lot and that's okay.
John Cox (43:27)
Yeah, it's interesting. I think there's this misconception that mountain biking is exponentially more dangerous and like in some ways it is, but yeah, my like worst crashes have been road or gravel. So yeah, it's just different. But yeah, I think that third tip.
you if we were to come up with a tagline for it would be, be patient with the skills, but let them come back. They ebb and flow just like fitness, right? Like if you take, you know, four weeks off in the off season and then you're not going to, your VO2 is not going to be great, right? It takes time to get that back and it's going to be the same way with the, with the skills, but you can be deliberate and practice it just like you develop fitness. And I think about this a lot with, you know, the
team and you know folks with high goals for mountain biking and then they've been relegated to the trainer all winter. You know don't don't let the first time that you're riding trail at speed be your first race. It's a bad call. It's not going to go well.
Peter Haile (44:38)
Sure, yeah,
no.
John Cox (44:41)
you're going to be distracted because of racing and fitness. Like your lungs are going to be hurting and your skills are going to be rusting. You're going to be ping ponging. And we've all been there, right? Where you make one micro mistake and then you just compound and you keep making mistake after mistake. So, you know, get on the bike, get practice skills, you know, in the weeks, months, like leading into those, those races, I think it's really, really important.
Peter Haile (44:55)
Yeah.
For sure. mean, speaking of that, I think just emotionally, I think the attitude that I used to have is I need to get like hyped up for races or something, or like for trying to go really fast on trails. And like now I try and do the opposite. if I want to go really fast on trails, like I'm trying to be as like serene and calm and like unflappable as possible. Like I'm trying to just be like Mr. Cool. I'm not trying to be like, you know, a Red Bull commercial. I'm trying to...
be like an NPR like ad read, you know? But I don't know, that's an aside.
John Cox (45:41)
Yeah, yeah, think it's okay to, you know, like have the nerves and all of that. But once you're going, you know, if it feels slow, like if it feels slow, A, you could be going slow. B, you could be going really fast. And like when you're going your fastest, it doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like a lot of work. And it's kind of like being in a clapped out.
you know, like Civic or like an old truck going down the highway at 75 feels like you're going crazy fast and like you're going to die. But then you get in, you know, a luxury car and it feels super smooth and you're going 130, you know, and just because it feels fast doesn't mean you are fast. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like the people that like insist on still running.
Peter Haile (46:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You'd rather ride in luxury car. You don't want to ride it knocked out.
John Cox (46:38)
high tire pressure. Like, it feels fast. Well, I don't care if it feels fast. Like, I want you to actually be fast and tires obviously is a hot topic. We'll save for another time. Well, we're crushing time. So let's shift over to, you know, kind of recent things we've been thinking about, show and tell, musings.
Peter Haile (46:47)
for sure.
John Cox (47:02)
Yeah, Peter, you've been diving a little bit into running media, some triathlon media that you've been sending my way. then, yeah, you can also talk about your baking soda experiment. So choose whichever one.
Peter Haile (47:09)
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Yeah. Well, they're related because I've been inspired by a particular runner. There's a guy named David Roche and he won the Leadville 100 mountain bike or not, not Leadville 100 like running race. And he was, he's been a successful runner. He's a coach, but he's never like been had the elite success he's had recently. Um, and I just found his approach so fascinating. Um, I've been
listening to a lot of running media because partly I probably have pride issues. Like I just think a lot of the bike media out there is like, you know that scene where like Ron Swanson's at like Home Depot and he's like, I know more than you. I'm like, I feel like that and this bad. Like I should, I should have like the sense of humility and be like, like, like I can, I can learn from anyone, but like it's hard for me with bike media. I'm like, there's just so much nonsense that people are putting out there. Yeah. But the running.
John Cox (48:09)
so much nonsense.
Peter Haile (48:12)
I'm able, because I'm not a very good runner. And I think they are exploring some different ideas. And some of them are just, they talk more about training than like gear, which ultimately like makes way bigger, way, way, way bigger of a difference. Like, cause running doesn't really have gear. Like they talk about shoes like minimally, but it's not like as gear intensive as cycling is. But David Roche,
He took this attitude towards ultra endurance running where he's like, I know that I can't, like, I don't have the VO2 max to like smash a hundred miles like, and just outwork people. like my, his goal was like, I'm going to be the best 5k runner that's ever showed up to the start line of a hundred mile race. like, so he, his workouts are like really hard. He's doing a lot of his workouts at like sub 430 mile pace.
And honestly, he's strong enough to be able to do that. but it's just very unusual for that style of athlete to be like focused on going so hard. and it's also resonated with me because like, because I don't have the time to do 30 hours a week. I am employing like a reverse periodization strategy where I, I am also trying to go harder than you typically would at this point in the year, because like my time is limited. So I want to make the most of it. and.
So he's, trying to be really, really fast and then fueling for the endurance. And so that's kind of my strategy, but there's a, he's made a film series, David Roche, R-O-C-H-E, and they're amazing. They're super cool. Like, I also like him because he is, seems like he has quite a bit of emotional intelligence and he's part of his
probably, like, he, I don't know how to phrase this in a way, that's not, he doesn't have this, like, hoo-ah, like, let's be tough, like, let's just grit our teeth, like the David Goggins approach, like, he's the opposite of that, he's not, like, obviously he's incredible athlete, obviously he does incredibly hard things, but, like, you don't have to have this, like,
this dominating attitude towards your life or like he's like working way more with like making it better, like making this kinder, making this more like sustainable as a thing that he can do for a long time, which really resonates with me because I don't want to do like activities that just rely on me being incredibly tough for.
a year, which I could probably do something really, really hard for year, but I want to be doing this when I'm like 60. I want to be at a place where I'm emotionally healthy for the next 30 or 40 years of my life.
John Cox (50:57)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Which ties into what we were talking about at the start of this, was the grace and grit of deciding when to call it, when to pivot, all of that, and it's that emotional intelligence.
Peter Haile (51:14)
Yeah. Yeah. So David Roche and he has a podcast called swap. it's the acronym is some work all play, which I really like. Like, yeah, there's some work, but it's all play. It's all good.
John Cox (51:27)
ones for us anew.
Peter Haile (51:28)
Yeah, what do you mean, in taking?
John Cox (51:31)
I've been riding a lot, so I've been listening to a lot of podcasts. If you want to go down some nerdy pathways, empirical cycling is really good. Do some Watt Docs and some diving into research articles. I feel like I'm having conversations with some fellow nerds, so shout out to those guys.
I'm not just alone thinking about this stuff. Yeah, you know, it's just been a busy season lately, so I haven't had much capacity to do too much exploring, you know, media-wise.
Peter Haile (51:57)
Yeah.
John Cox (52:11)
Yeah, you know, I've been thinking, well, one, I got back into journaling. So that's been, that's been clutch. And this is.
think like a low key feature of like training peaks is, know, A, you know, I put an expectation on my athletes that, hey, I need you to put comments in here because your feedback is the most valuable, like we were saying earlier. But I even self-coached put that feedback in there. And in a lot of ways, it's been my journaling for a little while because I do spend so much time, you know, training and reflecting and it's like, I didn't.
feel good first, felt whatever. And it just has kept that habit alive. But now that I have a little bit more capacity, yeah, I'm getting a little bit more away from just the training pieces, but you know, thoughts, all of that. So that's been good.
Peter Haile (53:01)
It's
like integrative medicine almost. like it all works together. Like your capacity to journal is doing nothing but helping your ability to perform as a coach and as an athlete, as a friend. I have also been journaling and I think it really, really helps.
John Cox (53:18)
Yeah.
Peter Haile (53:26)
and to share it occasionally with people, know, the things that need to be shared, but just to like process it. Like, I think for a long, long time, like my, maybe you're different, but I think you're probably better at this than I am, but like my strategy is like avoiding emotional pain and...
So just to write it down and own it and share it with some people is so valuable. was like, okay, yeah, this sucked. It really hurt. And I'm dealing with stuff that happened 15 years ago. But I've been carrying that forever, since then. I'm getting to this point where it doesn't work anymore to just like...
John Cox (54:04)
Yeah.
Peter Haile (54:08)
keep lugging it around in my hidden backpack. Like I gotta deal with it or else it's gonna have bad consequences.
John Cox (54:14)
Yeah,
yeah. I think, you know, dealing with it sometimes is just like admitting it or owning it and that's it. You know, obviously there's, you know, situations and things that take more time, but I think sometimes like the biggest step is just acknowledgement and, you know, that's what, you know, journaling allows you to do. you know, it's a quote from Anne Frank, but something it has one thing I've been thinking about is
I may butcher it, but paper is more patient than people. And so, you know, I think that's obviously was a very important thing for her, but, you know, like processing that on paper, processing things on paper helps you kind of wrap your mind around things before just like putting it on other people. I think that's unfair.
Peter Haile (54:45)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
John Cox (55:05)
Be it friends, significant, others, partners, spouses. It's easy to just throw it on them. But yeah, the paper being more patient than people I think is invaluable.
Peter Haile (55:15)
Yeah.
John Cox (55:18)
Yeah, and then like the other thing I've been thinking about with that, and this is, you could use this for coaching and life, but, and there's a new book out and I need to read it, but I think it's called Remembrance, but it's basically the fact that like our brains aren't meant to remember things long-term. Like we are meant to forget, and that's incredibly freeing too, because like, you know, we put these expectations that we need to retain all this stuff all the time.
Peter Haile (55:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Cox (55:44)
But like writing things down just allows you to forget and reference back if you need to. And you know, that's huge. And that's a huge part of my like coaching practice is writing things down because I have, you know, 20 something people telling me all these things about their lives and their training and what they, you know, hope or want or what's not going well. And if I were to try to retain all of that, I would do a very bad job. So I have to take notes.
And then I can always reference it back. And it allows me to be more freeing, freed and engaged with people instead of just trying to like retain information. So, and I think it's the same thing for, you know, an athlete. Just writing it down, writing your emotions down about the race or about the workout allows you to move on and kind of put a cap to it instead of like, got to, you know.
Peter Haile (56:20)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Cox (56:34)
tell coach about this a week later and then they definitely don't tell me about it.
Peter Haile (56:38)
Right.
For sure, yeah. It's just a healthy practice as a person. Like, ignore the fact that you're an athlete. It's just really important. Yeah, that's good stuff. I've been reading Lord of the Rings, in it, he's not mentioned very much in the story, but the god character is named Eru Iluthitar, and he...
made humans able to die, know, not to make this like a roast or anything, but like it was a gift. The fact that like there's this temporariness and I think that is related to our, you know, our memories as well. like just the ability to like not have to bear things for ever and ever and ever is kind of a gift, you know, like I've been thinking about that. It's kind of cool.
John Cox (57:30)
Yeah. Well, to shift gears, how did your baking soda experiments go?
Peter Haile (57:35)
Oh yeah,
Yeah, that was another David Roche thing. So David Roche uses, Morton's uses this bicarb like encapsulated baking soda. Yeah, yeah. And it's really expensive. And so I'm trying to like ball out on a budget here. And so like, oh, is that it? There it is. So I just like, you have to take quite a bit. Like it's like 0.3 grams per kilogram.
John Cox (57:45)
hydrogel is what it is.
Yeah.
Peter Haile (58:05)
of
your body weight and it ended up being like quite a bit for me. And I just put it in water and I put it in like half a liter of water and it was like borderline undrinkable. Like I won't, I straight up will not do it again because like it is, it feels like you're drinking poison. And then the other bad side effect is it made me like incredibly bloated. You know, like when you put baking soda in vinegar, like
it produces carbon dioxide. And I think that happened to my stomach. Not that my stomach is vinegar, but it's acidic. And I think I had a lot of carbon dioxide. And so I just felt incredibly bloated. And I really wasn't sure whether it was helping or not. Maybe it was buffering. The upset went fine. I felt good. But I always have a difficult relationship with causality.
Did I feel okay just because I was well prepared and I'd eaten enough that day and I had good nutrition or was baking soda doing something? And I've always had a hard time with that. Even with foods that give you headaches, like, don't know. I've got a lot of variables in my life. I never know whether it's dark chocolate or red wine or whatever. I don't know. I'm not gonna do it again. I might try the Morton stuff or figure out how to do some sort of clumb room Martens, but I straight up won't do.
things out in water, it's like not worth it.
John Cox (59:28)
No, it's one of those things that athletes ask me about, blessing and curse, right? All the information. And yeah, it's all out there. But one, it is marginal. But it is proven scientifically, like in the literature. But.
Peter Haile (59:34)
It's in the news,
John Cox (59:46)
There's the giant question mark like can you actually handle it and that's this is you know to back to the David Goggins things this isn't like tough enough situation like this is a like you might Totally poop your pants or vomit Like like it doesn't matter if you're you know buffering lactate while you're on the toilet You need to be on your bike So the risk is high and so I think you know
Peter Haile (1:00:01)
Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna take that risk. It's not that important to me.
Yeah.
John Cox (1:00:14)
what Morton's done is fairly revolutionary because it does allow people to take in bicarb that otherwise wouldn't be able to. Whether it's, you know, totally worth it or not, I don't know. And, you know, I bought some like a year ago and I used it one time.
Peter Haile (1:00:27)
Yeah.
John Cox (1:00:36)
Because it is expensive and I was like, like let's see I had a fairly good effort Or workout but again like It was it just like the training I was well rested slept like it's pretty hard to like do a scientific study in our own lives and then I haven't used it since because it is expensive but then I was also scared to use it in races because I like I felt a little bit with the Morton stuff, I still have like a little bit of like
a burp going on and a little bit of that extra gas. And this might be TMI, but I struggle with that sometimes in general. And so I don't want to make it even worse. so like any race, was like, it might help, but it also could backfire. And so I haven't really used it, but now I'm looking at the package and it's Best Buy.
Peter Haile (1:01:10)
Yes.
John Cox (1:01:21)
January 2025, so I guess this month I'll blow through it.
Peter Haile (1:01:25)
Yeah,
those are just guidelines anyways. I think every athlete has just gotten a box of Goose from like some race as a preem or something and it's like, it's always a really expired. It's like some shop is just giving their expired product to the race promoter to give away.
John Cox (1:01:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Peter Haile (1:01:44)
I've used tons of expired food.
John Cox (1:01:45)
most of the time fun.
Peter Haile (1:01:47)
Yeah, usually. Just no yogurt, no dairy products, no meat.
John Cox (1:01:51)
me.
Peter Haile (1:01:52)
Yeah.
John Cox (1:01:52)
Well, should we wrap this one up?
Peter Haile (1:01:53)
think that's it.
Yeah, yeah. It's great talking with you. Hopefully this is helpful to people out there.
John Cox (1:01:57)
Yeah, dude, great talking with you.
Yeah, let us know if you have topics you want us to talk about, rabbit holes you want us to go down. But we'll keep doing more of these and I imagine, yeah, yeah, send in questions. I imagine these will just get better over time. This is our first time and we're kind of just winging it. So yeah, we'll get after it, we'll be consistent.
Peter Haile (1:02:10)
Yes, any questions?
Yeah.
Yep.
Cool, good to talk to you. I'm gonna get back to the grindstone. Gotta go make some snow groomers.
John Cox (1:02:26)
Nice.